2016 KIA SOUL Engine Problems

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated that while driving at an undisclosed speed, the check engine warning light illuminated intermittently. The contact stated that the engine was consuming an excessive amount of engine oil. The contact stated that the engine consumed 2-quarts of oil every week. The vehicle was taken to the dealer, who informed the contact that the vehicle had previously been repaired under NHTSA Campaign Number: 19V120000 (Engine, Engine and Engine Cooling) and that the dealer was unable to perform the repair free of charge a second time. The vehicle was taken to an independent mechanic, who informed the contact that the engine needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not repaired. The contact stated that the manufacturer would not sell her a new engine. The manufacturer was made aware of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 100,000.

I WAS DRIVING AND BLUEISH GRAYISH SMOKE CAME POURING OUT OF MY EXCAUST. CAR LOS5 POWER AND I HAD TO HAVE ITTOWED TO A CAR DEALER. I WAS TOLD IT NEEDS A NEW ENGINE. I HAVE A EXTENDED WARRANTY AND THEY ARE GIVING ME A HARD TIME NOT APPROVING A NEW ENGINE. I KNOW KIAS HAVE ALOT OF ENGINE RECALLS FOR THIS PROBLEM. WHY WAS MY CAR NOT ON THAT RECALL LIST? THANK you

The car was recalled in 4/2019 for a repair. I purchased the car 8/2020. The repair indicated catalytic converter assessment to ensure that the engine did not need to be replaced. It was not checked or verified. The recall was insufficient done and the car should had never been sold. And the recall was not completed prior. I took the vehicle in to complete a recall on a hazardous vehicle. Kia had my car for a month and half replacing the engine and within hours of picking up my car the engine light came back on. The car is still doing the exact same thing it was doing leading up to original repair. That Kia was suppose to had fixed. The car is also a theft safety issue as targeted I already paid 2700 for theft vandalism. The car is targeted and unsafe.

CARMAX sold a recalled vehicle in 2019 in 2020. KIA has still improperly repaired the vehicle the car is still doing the exactly same thing it was doing. That lead to the repair. After picking within the hour the engine light came back on and had been on ever since. I now have electrical issues with the window since KIA Napelton of Elmhurst repaired the vandalism the wiper is malfunctioned at pick up. I want a refund the vehicle is a safety issue mechanical and for theft.

My car engine blew and I contacted kia to get the engine replaced under the recall and the refused to do it.

While traveling down 20E around MM83 in South Carolina, the car suddenly lost power and throttled down to around 10-15 miles per hour. Upon having in towed to a garage for a diagnostic, I was told that the catalytic converter had overheated and stalled the vehicle. This appears to be an issue that would be covered under NHTSA Recall 19V120, dated April 12 2019, which reads in part "Under certain conditions, the catalytic converter may become damaged due to overheating caused by an excessive increase of exhaust gas temperatures." The heat scoring on the catalytic converter and the stall are consistent with this kind of behavior. When I contacted the dealer, they denied any such recall existed. I am currently waiting for a response from Kia America, Inc.

I was driving to Bend, Oregon on the highway when suddenly my car started making clunking noises and the oil light and check engine lights came on. I started to lose power and the car was slowing. I immediately managed to pull over, but it gets very dangerous since it was a busy highway. I had the car towed to a mechanic who said the engine blew and needed to be replaced. Kia has denied my warranty claims.

No warning lights/codes. Veh lost power. Was catalytic converter. Veh VIN did not fall under recall. Had to replace converter at our cost. Safety concern? Car had potential fire from overheated converter and could have killed my 19 y/o daughter who drove the car as primary veh. The car is barely 6 years old and just paid it off. Got the high end adult version w/ sunroof, leather seats, lights, all bells & whistles. Paid 29k & engine failed due to driving car without knowing converter was bad. Never rec'd notice because our VIN was not included. Dealer wants to charge us 9000$ to replace engine at OUR cost. DO NOT BUY THIS VEHICLE EVER. THEY REFUSE TO FIX IT UNLESS WE PAY FOR IT. Filed a case w/ Kia Consumer Center, but since engine failure is not covered under warranty, they will not replace engine. We now have a...

Engine and brake lights have come on. Engine knocks bad. Vehicles stall when pressing gas. Dangerous driving soecialy going through stop sign. Low power while pressing gas.

The contact's girlfriend owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated while his girlfriend was driving at an undisclosed speed, the accelerator pedal was depressed, but the vehicle failed to respond and would not exceed 55 MPH. Additionally, the vehicle began to decelerate unintendedly. The vehicle was taken to the contact's location. The contact then took the vehicle to an independent mechanic, where it was diagnosed that the catalytic converter was clogged, which created back pressure in the engine and loss of power. The mechanic related the failure to NHTSA Campaign Number: 19V120000 (Engine, Engine and Engine Cooling). The dealer was notified of the failure and informed the contact that the VIN was not included in the recall. The vehicle was not repaired. The manufacturer was not notified of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 154,000.

This vehicle, Kia Soul 2016, uses excessive oil, no matter what the manufacturer or dealers say. There is no reason to put 1 to 1/2 quarts of synthetic oil in this vehicle every week to make sure the engine doesn't seize. Severe manufacturer flaw and/or design with this engine.

Previous NHTSA 11498487 for the same issue reported on 12/22. After 8 months of changing the catalytic converter the Kia Soul 2016 de-accelerated in the highway from 60mph to barely 30Mph with a burning smell the check engine light come up and the code once again for the catalytic converter. The catalytic converter was replaced under the warranty from the repair shop on 1/23. Now on 4/23 the check engine light is on again for the catalytic converter again. The repair shop won't change it again. Instead they suggested to bring it to the dealership. Kia dealership stated that my VIN is not included in the recall and they only did theE PI2002A ECU update the rest is not covered by the manufacturer warranty. I've changed 3 times the catalytic converter and the light is code is asking for another one. It's not normal. Major safety hazard for the vehicle...

As we were driving on the highway, the check engine light started flashing on my car and it proceeded to go into limp mode. This proved to be a danger to me and everyone driving around me. The car would not accelerate and would shake violently. I had to pull over on the side of the highway. The only light that ever appeared was the CEL, when it was already too late. Upon taking it to a mechanic we were told that the 1st and 3rd cylinders were complete garbage and a whole engine replacement was necessary.

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated while driving approximately 65 MPH, the vehicle stalled and failed to restart. The check engine warning light was illuminated prior to the failure. The vehicle was towed to an independent mechanic to be diagnosed. The contact was informed that the engine needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not repaired. The contact stated that the previous owner repaired the vehicle under NHTSA Campaign Number: 19V120000 (Engine, Engine and Engine Cooling) and 17V608000 (Steering); however, the failure recurred. The manufacturer was notified of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 150,000.

Was idling at a red light, the engine warning light came on, and my engine set on fire. No reason. I jumped out of the car. Thankfully someone came over and threw water on it. Engine to be completely rebuilt (under warranty). Took 3 weeks.

Car cuts off when idling. I took it to the mechanic several times and they produced the issue once but could not diagnose and would give it back to me at no charge. When it cuts off the RPMs will sometimes stay at 0 even when I start the car again. Sometimes the check engine light will come on along with the traction light. Mechanic said it shows catalytic codes but said nothing is wrong with catalytic converter. They said they can’t find anything wrong to warrant repair. The check engine and traction control lights stay on and then go off randomly. The car cuts off at stop lights and today it cut off when I was turning right at a stop sign. I was already out in the road and someone was behind me. Thankfully no one was coming down the road at full speed. I am afraid to...

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated that the vehicle was previously included in NHTSA Campaign Number: 19V120000 (Engine, Engine and Engine Cooling) regarding the heat shield for the catalytic converter, which, was replaced under the recall. The contact stated that the vehicle began to malfunction after the repair. The vehicle would jump and shift into gear roughly while driving at various speeds. The RPM was revving abnormally. The contact stated that it seemed as if the vacuum seal had detached underneath the vehicle, and the vehicle was making a whistling sound while accelerating. The check engine warning light was illuminated. The vehicle was taken to the dealer who informed the contact that the catalytic converter replaced since the recall was closed. The manufacturer was made aware of the failure. The approximate failure mileage was 99,000.

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated while her daughter was driving approximately 35 MPH and ascending a slight grade in the road, the vehicle stalled. The check engine and oil pressure warning lights were illuminated. The contact stated that her daughter was able to restart the vehicle. The contact stated that the oil pressure warning light had been illuminated intermittently even after routine oil changes. The vehicle was taken to the local dealer, where it was diagnosed that the gas cap needed to be replaced. The vehicle was repaired; however, the failure reoccurred. The vehicle was taken back to the dealer. The vehicle was not repaired. The contact related the failure to NHTSA Campaign Number: 19V120000 (Engine, Engine and Engine Cooling). The manufacturer was not notified of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 75,000.

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated that while driving approximately 70 MPH, the engine seized without warning. The vehicle was towed to the local dealer where it was diagnosed that the rod bearing had failed. The vehicle was not repaired. The manufacturer was contacted but provided no additional assistance due to the vehicle not meeting the Warranty Extension requirements. The failure mileage was approximately 100,000.

2/17/23 Car was disabled on highway lost speed in the middle of traffic and could not go over 20MPH at dealership- it was confirmed that catalytic convertor went out. 2/23/23 Car CC was replaced picked it up and noticed weird sound from engine 2/24/23 Car returned to dealership 3/3/23 Dealership stated the engine was bad 3/13/23 We were informed that KIA would not cover the repairs and we had to pay $5700 4/3/23 Dealership called and said car was ready to be picked up Car has 78,000 miles on it and has been well maintained - we have all of the service records We understand there is a class action lawsuit where high exhaust gas temperatures may damage the catalytic convertor, resulting in abnormal engine combustion damaging the engine. We have been told that our engine did not qualify under the VIN number that we had. KIA has had known...

Catalytic converter issues. I've had to get it replaced several times already and still issues. car burns oil like crazy as well and I have had to add oil throughout the week. it's been this way since I bought it in 2018. 2016 Kia Soul +

Horne Kia in Gilbert Arizona tore down our engine and found it damaged beyond repair. We were told by the aforementioned dealership that the engine would need to be replaced. Kia has given our engine a 15 year / 150,000 mile warranty due to this nation wide Kia / Hyundai engine defect situation. Our vehicle has around 79,000 miles and is a 2016 model. Still Kia refuses to replace the engine. The safety problem that comes into play is that Kia is telling us to continue driving our vehicle until the engine completely freezes up. Kia is sending ours and many others vehicles back out on the road in this condition. These vehicles can break down at any time and create a possible incident that could be detrimental to the safety of the driver and others in the area.

The vehicle contains a defect related to motor vehicle safety or does not comply with an applicable federal motor vehicle safety standard ENGINE REPLACED THRESHOLD REPLACED CATALITIC CONVERTER BLEW ECU COMPLETED AIRBAG WARNING DOES NOT CLEAR INACCURATELY REPORTED/ COMPLETED VEHICAL MALFUNCTIONING LOSS OF POWER

I purchased my 2016 Kia Soul 11/25/22 and on 12/15/22 my check engine light came on getting off freeway. While driving the accelerator wasn’t catching speed could’ve go pass 20mph making loud noises like transmission was slipping. The dealer towed my car from my Job. Dealership gave me an tuneup oil change and replaced engine coils. 2/7/23 check engine light came again and my car couldn’t do 15mph again and service department stated a need a new engine and it’s covered under warranty but every Kia dealership states they can’t Maintence my car until months advance and they can’t give me a loaner if they can replace the engine so I been missing work due to my Kia running bad and I only had it since 11/22.

Engine knocking noise on acceleration

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated that while driving at various speeds, the vehicle lost motive power. The vehicle was difficult to start and remained running at restarting. There were no warning lights illuminated. The vehicle was towed to the local dealer where it was diagnosed that the catalytic convertor needed to be replaced. The vehicle was repaired. The manufacturer was contacted and informed the contact that the repair was not covered under recall and referred her to the NHTSA hotline for assistance. The contact stated that the failure was related to NHTSA Campaign Number: 19V120000 (Engine, Engine and Engine Cooling). The failure mileage was approximately 126,000.

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated that while driving 45 MPH, the oil and check engine warning lights illuminated. The contact stated that he pulled over and checked the oil level and there was no oil in the engine. The vehicle was taken to the dealer where the contact was informed that the engine needed to be replaced after an oil consumption test was completed. The engine was not replaced as the dealer stated that it was not covered under the drivetrain warranty. The contact stated that the warranty was for 20 years or 200,000 miles as it covered the engine, transmission, transaxle, and other parts related to the drivetrain. The manufacturer was not made aware of the failure. The approximate failure mileage was 112,000.

My car started making a ticking noise around 92k. I was afraid to drive it because of all the information id read on the KIA engines catching on fire. I had it towed to a local mechanic who wouldn't touch it and said I needed to bring it to the dealership because I'm still under warranty. I had my vehicle towed again which cost me over 400$ to a KIA dealership. They told me that the engine would need to be replaced but wouldnt tell me why. In fact they REFUSED to tell me why. After I demanded a diagnosis, they stopped responding to my calls.SIX WEEKS they held my vehicle hostage. I called Kia manufacturer customer service who made a call to them. The dealership tried every possible way they could to get out of fixing my engine. I went to the dealership to get something out of my...

NHTSA - I own a 2016 Kia Soul that has a damaged failing engine; the problem is excessive oil consumption. This defect is causing motor oil to migrate into areas of the engine that it shouldn't be, thus inevitably causing a catastrophic failure; rendering the engine inoperable and irreparable. The oil pressure warning light came on only after the damage was done. Horne Kia in Gilbert Arizona, where I purchased the vehicle, has inspected it and found this to be true. However Horne Kia and Kia corporate will not repair or authorize repair, respectively. I was told to continue driving it until the engine is completely destroyed in order to have it repaired...WHAT. So I'm being told that the engine will definitely seize-up and fail leaving me stranded; this is a safety nightmare. What if I'm driving on a highway when this happens. What if the engine failure causes me...

My 2016 Kia Soul began having acceleration problems mid-December 2022, around 100k miles. I took my car to Kia Service and was told the ECU needed to be updated and that was most likely the cause of the problem. I received the update on 12/14/2022. My car drove a little better for two days but began experiencing the same acceleration issues. I couldn't go over 60 mph on the interstate. It also seemed to be burning gas fast. Although a diagnostic test was attempted twice, there were no findings since the engine light still hadn't come on. It wasn't until 2 months later, 2/11/2023, that my car stalled out on the interstate at 10:00pm at night. I had it towed to Kia and they confirmed the same thing that my reader did on 2/12/23: engine code P1326, knock sensor. On 2/16/23, Kia ran a diagnostic test and came up with...

KIA Soul had a malfunction with the Catalytic converter and a bad injector which damaged the pinions and the sparks plug of the vehicle causing thousands of dollars in repair.

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated that while driving at an undisclosed speed, there was smoke coming from the engine compartment. The vehicle was taken to the dealer; however, the dealer was unable to duplicate the failure. The vehicle stalled afterward while driving, with the check engine warning light illuminated. The vehicle was then taken to Kia of Valencia (24095 Creekside Rd, Santa Clarita, CA 91355) where the dealer requested the oil change records. The vehicle was not repaired. The manufacturer was not made aware of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 135,000

Car is only a 2016 that has had issues since I bought it at 90k miles. It constantly required oil changes every other week. Paid in full the replacement of the catalytic convertor only for the engine to fail and the convertor be gummed up in less than 4 months

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated while driving approximately 60 MPH, the vehicle inadvertently decelerated. The contact stated that several unknown warning lights were illuminated. The contact then noticed a white cloud of smoke coming from under the hood of the vehicle. The contact was able to maneuver the vehicle off the roadway. The vehicle was towed to the residence where an independent mechanic was notified. Upon inspecting the vehicle, the mechanic determined that there was a hole in the engine block. The vehicle was then towed to the dealer where it was diagnosed that the engine failed and needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not repaired. The contact stated that she received the Manufacturer’s Recall: FC176; however, the manufacturer was notified of the failure and informed the contact that the VIN was no longer applicable due to the contact’s failure to comply with the...

1. On 1/30/23 I was heading home from work when my engine and oil light came on. I after parking at turning my car off, the engine began to shake and make clicking noises continuously. I got an oil change that day thinking that may help the issue. On 1/31/23 I took my car to another mechanic who notified me that they have seen many Kia Souls and Optimas with this problem and many engines have been recalled. Upon my way home which was 2 miles away, my engine entirely blew up on interstate 15. 2. My safety was put at risk by my car engine blowing up on the freeway and losing power within seconds as traffic was going at 70 mph. I then ended up right in front of an on-ramp and had a small area to park at as was within 1 foot of oncoming highway traffic...

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated while driving 45 MPH, the vehicle began to overheat and there was smoke coming out from underneath the hood. There was no warning light illuminated. The contact veered to the side of the road. The vehicle then caught on fire. The contact stated that a significant amount of oil had leaked underneath the vehicle onto the ground. The contact was able to extinguish the fire with the assistance of the fire department. The contact was unsure whether a fire department report or police report was filed. There were no injuries sustained. The vehicle was towed to an independent mechanic, where it was diagnosed that the failure was associated with NHTSA Campaign Number: 19V120000 (Engine, Engine, and Engine Cooling). The vehicle was not repaired. The dealer was not notified of the failure. The manufacturer was notified of the failure and informed...

Car would not accelerate over 35 mph and started knocking had to pull over to let other vehicles pass. Turned around went back home a 1/2 mile checked alternator current, added 1/2 quart of oil. Started engine knocking continued oil was low again after running engine a few minutes. No smoking from exhaust, no oil in radiator, no dripping or leaking oil.

I was driving on the Interstate, going about 65-70mph when my car make a "tick noise," I immediately noticed white smoke out the back, my car started to decelerate, and I could no longer accelerate when applying the gas. Luckily I was able to get over to the right shoulder and pull off on the side and stop. After taking it to my mechanic, he told me my engine was knocking and that Kia has all these recalls and class actions on these engines (for this EXACT issue) and that Kia extended their warranty for these vehicles to 150k. I take it to Kia and they tell me they won't cover it because I didn't get a KSDS software update. I bought this car Certified Pre-Owned from a Kia dealership. When a recall notice came through in 2019 I took it in to Kia to get it "fixed." Kia has...

The contact’s father owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated that while his father was driving at an undisclosed speed, the engine started to make a knocking sound. No warning lights were illuminated. The vehicle was hauled back to his father’s residence. The vehicle was then taken to an independent mechanic however, no diagnostic test was performed. The vehicle was not diagnosed or repaired. Neither the dealer nor the manufacturer was notified of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 79,024.

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated that while driving at an undisclosed speed, the vehicle hesitated to accelerate. The vehicle was towed to the dealer, where it was diagnosed that the engine was consuming an excessive amount of engine oil. The dealer replaced the catalytic converter; however, the failure recurred. The vehicle was taken to two independent mechanics, who replaced the catalytic converter on two separate occasions. The failure recurred, and the vehicle was then towed to The Kia Store (5327 Preston Hwy, Louisville, KY 40213) where it was diagnosed that the catalytic converter and engine needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not repaired. The manufacturer was made aware of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 29,000.

On 12/27/22, was driving on highway in the evening, engine light illuminated and vehicle slowed down and unable to drive beyond 40mph. Was able to make it home safely, notified dealership on 12/28/22 and used AAA service for vehicle tow. Recv'd call from dealership on 1/3/22 that vehicle was inspected and was ready for pickup. Issue was code P1326 related to KSDS (knock sensor detection system) & connector rod bearings, so they did an ECU update & bearing clearance test. (While waiting for info I did online research & learned of the issue with KIA's GDI engine failures/fires). I asked dealer rep if the issue with my vehicle was related to this and was told yes, that this was the first step in Kia's protocol for the issue. I raised concern over driving the vehicle knowing that there is a possibility of engine failure or fire. He acknowledge the concern,...

The contact owns a 2016 Kia Soul. The contact stated while driving 40 MPH, the check engine warning light illuminated, and the vehicle went into LIMP Mode. The vehicle was taken to the dealer and the contact was informed that the catalytic converter was clogged and needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not repaired. The manufacturer was contacted, and a case was filed. The failure mileage was 200,000.

Our car was sold to us not knowing about a recall. It was taken to a local Kia. The car dealership says they didn’t know. It’s already had a replaced catalytic converter and didn’t fix the problem. Our engine light, ABS light and a skidding light come on and off. No one will listen to us. We don’t know what to do next.

Catalytic converter failing on 2016 Kia soul. Was not part of the vin numbers for for original recalls. Has original catalytic converter

This issue happened with regular 3500 - 4000 mile oil changes. Oil burnt 100% away and the oil light indicator came on then and only when turning left. Filled oil back up. Oil Changed. Then oil burned away again. Same issue with oil light. This time the engine failed. The bearings are knocking and the engine needs replaced. Spoke with dealership, was told I should have got a software update and that would have placed a warranty on the motor. Never was I told, received mail or during an inspection was informed of needing a software update.

On Sept 19th I took my 2016 Kia Soul in for a Full Synthetic oil change, cabin filter and engine filter changed, brakes replaced, new tires, all fluids topped off, and allignment. My car was running perfect no issues. Approximately 11/15/2022 I thought I smelled oil burning but didn't think much about it because I've never had problems with my car. Oct 20th my oil light came on and I quickly stopped and found their was very little oil in my car. I called Tire Kingdom and they said put oil in it and bring it in, and I did as told. My car didn't seem to have power and I looked down and then all the various lights came on the dash and then a huge amount of smoke came from the engine fortunately I was able to get off this busy Hwy. I had my car towed home...

My car has a recall and a class action suit. I had my Kia serviced on Sept 19th, 2022 at Tire Kingdom, to include a full synthetic oil change, cabin filter replaced, engine filter replaced, new brakes, and tires. On Oct 18th as I drove into my home the oil light came on. I checked the oil and it was very low. I contacted Tire Kingdom and they said add oil and bring it in on Oct 21st 2022 at 10:00 AM. After buying oil, I was driving to Tire Kingdom. I entered Hwy 582 and in approx 2 to 3 miles all the gauges came on and the temperature gauge was on High. I immediately lost power and thankfully I was able to get off the highway as smoke completely blocked my visibility. It was cold and rainy and very dangerous as cars flew by me and my dog....

I purchased my vehicle back in 2021 and I notice that the recall for the catalytic converter so I check my car reports and don’t see where it was replaced or service I recently went to get a check engine diagnostic and the code read p0420 which is problems with catalytic converter no one has been the owner of the vehicle since 2018 and I’m not sure if it was replace or replace incorrectly I shouldn’t be experiencing difficulties and I haven’t reached over 100,000 miles since the previous mileage @ the timing of the recall “fixture”

I began having oil consumption issues with my car in December 2020. I took my car in for inspection and the product improvement campaign that I was notified about. Since that time, I have had my car in the Kia shop numerous times for increasingly worse oil consumption issues. They always claim the oil consumption is fine, even though when I check it there is a problem. Now I am being told my catalytic converter is clogged, but my engine is fine and my oil consumption is acceptable. The catalytic converter is clogged because there is oil leaking through my exhaust system. No oil is ever leaking from my car because there is no leak; however, it is burning through my engine and exhaust. This is causing my car to lose power when driving, which is a safety concern for not only myself and my children, but other drivers as...

We purchased a 2016 Kia Soul in June 2022, in November 2022 while driving across a highway the engine started knocking, went into limp mood and suddenly stopped almost causing my daughter and her younger sibling to get in severe accident. We had it immediately towed to Edwards Kia in Council Bluffs to have a diagnostic test run, they came back and said it would cost us $8,834.02 for an engine rebuild/replacement and that our car was no longer under the extended warranty because PI2002B had not been done. They informed us that not having the update voids the extended warranty on the car, however we have not been notified as the new owners that this needed to be done. PI2002B is dated Aug 2020 and was revised in Jan 2021. H&H Kia of Omaha took possession of the car 28 Nov 2020 and had it in their possession until...